singursaga: Fwd: [india-unity] UID and the caste stamp

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From: Xavier William <varekatx@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, May 29, 2011 at 6:41 PM
Subject: Re: [india-unity] UID and the caste stamp
To: india-unity@yahoogroups.com, indiathinkersnet@yahoogroups.com, KeralaDD@yahoogroups.co.uk, Mahajanapada@yahoogroups.com

Dasji,

If something cannot be defined then there is no point debating it. Take any act of the govt such as the petroleum act or the right to information act and the first thing the enactment does is to define the key terms used in the act. In a democracy things have to be defined. Those who would rather have things undefined want their own definitions to be pushed down the throats of others.

Better no law than a bad law? Who decides what is good law or bad law especially in a democracy?

On Sun, May 29, 2011 at 11:36 AM, Bhaskar Dasgupta <bdasgupta@gmail.com> wrote:

And that's what I am saying. Just because one wants something be defined doesnt mean that it can. There is no way to do it. Better no law than a bad law as the saying goes.

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On 29 May 2011, at 02:55, Sibi Mathew <sibi_m@yahoo.com> wrote:

Yes, this is my main point.Caste should be properly defined.

Bogus degree certificates are avialable in the market, can we do away with degrees?. Here we have law enforcing authorities to look into.

Caste should be defined taking into account the anthropological or sociological factor and this is the only way for a just distribution of resources.Self indentification of caste is questionable in courts.

From: Bhaskar Dasgupta <bdasgupta@gmail.com>
To: india-unity@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, May 28, 2011 10:55:00 PM
Subject: Re: [india-unity] UID and the caste stamp

Very good question, that is because there is no systematic definition behind the enumeration of caste in the law books. And that's the main reason why they dont want to get into the headache. Given the fact that there are reservations, everybody and his dog will want to be nominated as an SC / ST. There is a huge market in SC/ST certificates already. In Bhopal, the rate is about Rupees 7000 for an ST and about 1000 for an SC. Our maid servant's both kids got their certificates and availed of reserved government jobs.

We have riots (eg. in Rajasthan) where people demand to be counted as SC. Jai Ho.

there is no empirical, logical, anthropological or sociological basis behind this, only thing that works is either a vague historical sense or self identification. And if self identification would be applied, as I said, most will nominate themselves as it. Its simple economics.

On 28 May 2011 16:30, Sibi Mathew <sibi_m@yahoo.com> wrote:

Emperical in the sense that caste community is not a theoretical community like hindu community ,christian community etc. If the Government cannot distinguish a pulaya from a nair or menon, how it is giving reservation to one and not giving to another?

From: Bhaskar Dasgupta <bdasgupta@gmail.com>
To: "india-unity@yahoogroups.com" <india-unity@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Sat, May 28, 2011 9:01:45 AM

Subject: Re: [india-unity] UID and the caste stamp

Empirical? On what basis? How do you distinguish a Nair from a Sharma? Or a Nair from a Menon? Or a Matthew from a Paul? Which empirical factor would one use?

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On 28 May 2011, at 04:21, Sibi Mathew <sibi_m@yahoo.com> wrote:

Call it social groups or racial groups, these are empirical and not based on any profession or principle or belief systems.

From: Bhaskar Dasgupta <bdasgupta@gmail.com>
To: "india-unity@yahoogroups.com" <india-unity@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, May 27, 2011 10:12:51 PM
Subject: Re: [india-unity] UID and the caste stamp

Race, my friend, is an indication of skin colour primarily in ethnographic and anthropology as well in common english usage.

You are picking up social groups and family groups and conflating them with race.

There is simply no country wide objective criteria for castes other than self identification. Same with religion. The govt tried but has made a hash of it. There are some very good legal reasons why the government hasn't and shouldn't faff around with this caste business.

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On 27 May 2011, at 13:06, Sibi Mathew <sibi_m@yahoo.com> wrote:

Then what is Iyer,Pano,Mahar, Nair, Syrian Catholic,Mala, Madiga, Latin Catholic,Namboodiri,Knanya Catholic,Pulaya etc. etc. These are sub racial groupings.

From: Bhaskar Dasgupta <bdasgupta@gmail.com>
To: "india-unity@yahoogroups.com" <india-unity@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, May 27, 2011 2:58:59 PM
Subject: Re: [india-unity] UID and the caste stamp

And that is impossible to define. Race is not based on any objective criteria.

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On 27 May 2011, at 12:17, Sibi Mathew <sibi_m@yahoo.com> wrote:

A government Caste can only de defined on the basis of ethnic/sub racial groupings.

From: Bhaskar Dasgupta <bdasgupta@gmail.com>
To: "india-unity@yahoogroups.com" <india-unity@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, May 27, 2011 2:01:14 PM
Subject: Re: [india-unity] UID and the caste stamp

And on what basis will you define caste? Jati? Varna? Language? Occupation? Geographic basis? The joys are boundless.

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On 27 May 2011, at 08:13, Sibi Mathew <sibi_m@yahoo.com> wrote:

There is no need to define religion as far as the government is concerned and there is no problem if a person declares his/her religion as x,y or z to a census official. After all all religions are based on spiritual theories which cannot be proved in this world .Hence only a person can say what is her/his religion according to his/her convictions.

But caste is empirical, there will be problems in future if a person declares his/her caste according to his/her likes. Moreover Government has many specific schemes intended for various caste groups. All this calls for a clear defenition of caste.

From: Bhaskar Dasgupta <bdasgupta@gmail.com>
To: "india-unity@yahoogroups.com" <india-unity@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, May 27, 2011 9:06:54 AM
Subject: Re: [india-unity] UID and the caste stamp

When we are unable to define religion, the idea that we will be able to define caste is ludicrous. The govt should step out of all this rigmarole and stick it's nose out firmly. Ucc will be a better start. Meh

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On 27 May 2011, at 05:59, Sibi Mathew <sibi_m@yahoo.com> wrote:

All this confusion is because of a proper defenition of caste. Let Government make it clear what it mean by caste and let every individual decide whether he/she wants a caste or return as having no caste.

Many people including intellectuals cannot simply understand the difference between the Hindu Caste( the caste of Hinduism) & the Government Caste.These two entities are not the same and needs to differentiated.

From: Rebecca Kurian <reebs123in@yahoo.co.in>
To: india-unity@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, May 27, 2011 12:25:54 AM
Subject: [india-unity] UID and the caste stamp

From another list..

There hasn't been a caste census since the 1931 under the Brits .

Soon enumerators with handheld electronic devices will grant you a caste , even if you didn't want one or don't have one.

May be they will link this to the UID too.

I am not just a number ... I must have a caste too !

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Ministry in association with the Registrar General of India. Handheld devices, manufactured by Bharat Electronics Limited, will be used for the first time by the state governments which will carry out this paper-less exercise.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2011/20110520/main2.htm

During the early census, people often exaggerated their caste status to garner social status and it is expected that people downgrade it now in the expectation of gaining government benefits.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_census_of_India

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